Research

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Hi, I'm Naomi Murphy and this is the Locked Up Living podcast, where we talk with a wide range of people about harsh aspects of institutional life. We also explore some of the ways to overcome them and to grow and develop. I'm David Jones. So join us every Wednesday morning, six o'clock UK time, for a fresh podcast. Today we're meeting with Rochelle Marashi, who is a psychotherapist offering specialist training in stalking and coercive control, and I know this has been a subject of your research, Rochelle, so really delighted to have you on today to talk about this subject. Thank you and welcome.

So, Rochelle, we're here today to talk about your research on how psychotherapists work with women who's been subjected to stalking, and you're quite clear in your research that you don't want to talk about the women as victims, aren't you? Can you tell us a bit about why that is? Of course. So I do refer to them as targets. This shows intent, and it brings in the person carrying the action, and it's not so passive where it sounds like a crime has occurred and by default there is a victim. So I wanted to sort of bring those two together in one sentence, hence the term target.

And I have worked with people in the past who don't like to be referred to as victims, and I thought it was quite suitable because I do think that stalking is very calculated and targeted, and it's not by default, it's by design. Thank you. Yeah, that's perfectly understandable. Did you encounter any kind of difficulties or challenges when you were using that new terminology? Somewhat, some resistance, and I did have to explain the rationale behind it. I suppose it's a different way of looking at it. I think we use the term victim a lot, and once I was able to explain that, it was accepted.

So not so much of a big problem. Thank you. How did your research come about? What led you in that path? I had a psychotherapist many years ago, and I believe it was either the first or the second session that I was describing something to him, and he very bluntly cut me off and explained, This is stalking. This is criminal. And thanks to my therapist, I was able to keep myself safe, and I really could make sense of what was happening to me. Fast forward to when I decided to change career paths from working in human resources now into psychotherapy.

From being on placement, I noticed that the supervisors, the trainees, the therapists, they never name what is actually happening. There's a reluctancy. There's this idea of not labelling what is happening, and there's an over-reliance on theory, so really working with the feelings. And I noticed that safeguarding and safety planning, it really isn't part of what should be part of what we're also doing. So I felt that was really cut out. So it was a spark between curiosity and frustration.

I decided to do some more reading, and I couldn't really find anything, or not a lot of substance that would actually inform or educate a therapist on what to do if they have a client who walks in and is describing what is happening, whether they know it or they don't know it. I think I've come across some literature that says maybe your client or patient needs to speak to their doctor, and maybe they're required to take some medication, or maybe some cognitive behavioural therapy might help. And again, that really places the responsibility on the client or the patient.

So I just wanted to add more to the literature with the idea in mind to do something with it in the future. So whether that's training psychotherapists or the general public on matters surrounding coercive controlling behaviours and stalking. When you were talking, Rochelle, I was thinking, you know, you spoke about it explicitly being named by your therapist, and I was wondering how important that might be, because I think, I wonder if there's something particular about stalking and coercive control that actually might make it hard for the person who's on the receiving end of that to recognise it as what it is.

It's very insidious. It's very difficult to identify. So I do think it's very helpful to know what's going on. Ultimately, it is a crime. So whether the individual would like to report that or seek advice or talk to someone, whether that's Paladin or the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, it sort of opens the doors of possibilities and opportunities, and they're not just thinking that they

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did something wrong. It's their fault, and they're carrying all the shame and the guilt. And I do think that a multidisciplinary approach is very important, and they need as much support as possible. So by naming it, I think first and foremost, the seriousness of the matter comes into play, but then they will know what to do and take it from there. Thank you.

This is terribly interesting, Rochelle, because in the conversations that Naomi and I have been having over the years, several times we've been meeting with people who have noticed things, and in noticing them, they've brought them into the arena of thinking and therapy in the way that you've been doing. How do you define stalking for your research? I did start off by making it very clear that it is a crime. I didn't want that to be overlooked. But then there is no specific legal definition, which is part of the problem. There's a lot of ambiguity when it comes to stalking.

So I like to use the acronym FOUR, which I believe is the London School of Policing, I believe. I cannot remember, but they use FOUR, which is fixated, obsessive, unwanted, and repeated. And I think that really encapsulates stalking very well, and it's also very easy to remember. So I did make reference to that. Thank you. And do you think there's a problem with how we conceptualise and think about stalking in popular culture? I think so. I think media plays a very big role. First of all, whether it's recorded is a problem, and how it's reported is also a problem.

So, for example, they would refer to someone followed someone and then carried out a certain act. The word stalking rarely comes into play unless there's been a conviction and maybe a judge has decided that that was stalking, or maybe the police have placed a charge of stalking. So it's sort of left up to third parties to describe or identify, and then in pop culture. With certain movies or even music, it's all about the pursuit. It's something romantic. It's, you know, to pursue someone and eventually they give in. And it has become a bit of a joke as well.

So you often hear, Oh, you're stalking them on Facebook. So it's a term that's used flippantly. And even when I was, when I mentioned that I'm carrying out this research, one of the reactions I got was, That's so interesting. That's fascinating. I don't think you'll ever hear people say that about a research carried out about rape, because they understand how awful and devastating that can be. But there's this sort of fascination with stalking. I would say, you know, without naming certain shows on Netflix, for example, it's sort of become very salacious.

And if it's not to that extreme, then no one would know about it. But it doesn't always have to be to that extreme. It can be very insidious. It can go on for weeks, months and decades. So I think there's a lot of, we're not doing it any justice, I think. So, I mean, I suppose it's not really, in many cases, taken seriously enough. And of course there've been numerous tragic cases where there's been plenty of warning about what's going on, but it's not picked up early enough. Intervention isn't made. So. I guess it could even be worse than that.

I think, you know, some of the media stuff could actually be encouraging. You know, when it's depicted as kind of like romantic, romantic pursuit of somebody, it looks like it's something, you know, the person, it's usually a guy that's portrayed as stalking, I think, in the media. And if the guy's stalking and then eventually wins the woman over, if you've got someone who's got very poor people skills in the first place, you know, these kind of movies, I think, encourage stalking behaviour, not just glamorise it. Yeah.

So, Rochelle, what is the likelihood of a therapist encountering a client who's experienced being stalked? That's a very good question, and it comes down to have they even identified it. So if a client comes in and they're explaining, I'm receiving phone calls and emails, and I think someone's following me, I'm not quite sure. And if the client doesn't understand what's happening and the therapist isn't mentioning it, then nothing is going to happen. Then nobody knows that it's stalking. So it has to be identified first.

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For the most part, I would say clients wouldn't know that it is stalking. Again, especially if it's something like post-separation abuse and there was a relationship beforehand, they might not know exactly what it is. It's probably clearer to the general public if it's a complete stranger. So if it's someone that they don't know and they're receiving letters or something by post. But there is also this idea of, well, if you were in a relationship with that person, then, you know, what was it about you two? Did you argue a lot? There's a lot more questions.

So it can get very complex, but it can also be very simple. It is stalking at the end of the day, whether they were together or weren't together, whether it's a stranger. So it's about being able to identify it. And I would encourage therapists to actually use those terms, and if they're not sure, say, I'm not sure, but it could be, but at least bring that into the conversation. I think clients deserve to know. Yeah. So do you think a therapist having awareness can facilitate a client opening up about their stalking? I think so.

So with my research, and I didn't know this until I started to interview the therapists, three out of the four therapists were actually targeted by stalkers. And then when they worked with clients and named what was happening, That's when they were able to implement safeguarding and safety planning, and theory wasn't all that important anyways. So I do think that because of their understanding, and not just understanding this is stalking, but understanding the risks to them as a secondary target to the client. Well, I wondered as you were talking, Michelle, how you recruited your research participants.

We, you know, did you ask for therapists who'd worked with clients who've been stalked? Is that, you know, did you put a call out for that, or did you do some other kind of, like, sampling approach? It was very much a call out. It's very much the title: I'm looking for qualified psychotherapists who have worked with female targets of stalking, and it was on LinkedIn, it was on social media platforms, and it's all females who approached me, interestingly enough. So that's how it came about. So three were UK-based, and one was based in the States.

So in terms of, you've alluded to the fact that society perhaps doesn't take it seriously enough, but what is the psychological impact of being stalked? It can be any emotion under the sun. So it can be terror, it can be trauma, hypervigilance, isolation. I would describe it as loss, loss of a sense of self and freedom, also financial loss, and I don't think that's spoken about enough. So if somebody has to change their route to work or change jobs because of what's happening, and they might work somewhere else where it doesn't pay very well, it all contributes to their world absolutely shrinking.

But I would say fear, hypervigilance, and isolation, also just not knowing who to trust. And you use the word terror to start off with, which, you know, really conveys an awful lot about the severity of it as a crime for the victim. Sadly, I mean, there are cases where they make it into documentaries and they play out one of the last phone calls the target made to the police, and they said, I'm scared of this person. I think they're going to hurt me. I think they're going to harm me. And more often than not, they are right. It's gut instinct.

It's if they knew the person, that they know how their behaviour could escalate. So, yeah. And yet it sounds like society and therapists don't necessarily understand how severe the consequences are. Yeah, I mean, I personally have encountered therapists who have explained what's happening, talking to me about their clients, and then at the end just saying, Well, maybe they'll just get bored and leave my client alone. And I said, It's not a matter of boredom. They're not doing it because they're bored. There is a fixation. There is an obsession.

This has to be reported, whether that again is by police or whether that's Susie Lamplugh Trust. But I would encourage that first and foremost. It's not just something that they will drop. It's a pattern of behaviour. And how are stalking, how are people who've been stalked, how are they dealt with by, you know, do the police take these reports seriously? I think it's very subjective. They call it the postcode lottery. It depends on the police officer if they're...

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Very experienced in the field. If they have a lot of skin in the game, they might be able to call it out there and then and know what to do, and also tell the person, This will escalate. But I wouldn't say so. I think there, because stalking isn't a standalone crime; it's harassment and stalking. Usually they would say, Sounds like harassment, but they'll have to do it two times, or maybe we'll give them a warning. And that also plays part in not knowing what to do or how to keep themselves safe. Again, this idea of a relationship gone wrong, boredom, and that this too shall pass kind of approach.

How important for the client is it that the therapist has a good understanding of stalking? Very important, especially if they are aware of the escalation. And it depends how they are meeting. So, for example, if it's online, and this is what one of my candidates told me, is that they will never send the same links; it will always every week be different links. They might even change platforms. And this particular therapist decided to not take on any new clients, thinking maybe the person in question could pretend to be a client. So it's about both.

It's about how to keep the client safe and also how would the therapist keep therapeutic settings safe. And if they're meeting face to face, ask, How is the client getting there? Would you rather have morning sessions? Little things like that that would really help the client. Sort of really appreciate that someone is listening and that they are seen and believed. Does the client's experience ever get played out in the therapeutic relationship? You know how emotions can be quite contagious, can't they? And just thinking about, does it get played out in the transference, countertransference? It is possible.

All candidates said that they started to feel quite hypervigilant themselves. Little things from just walking down the road, and they started to notice the ring doorbells. This is something that never really bothered them. And also not engaging in much small talk in public, at bus stops, for example. So yes, I do think that we therapists carry something, and especially when there are heightened emotions at play and risk at play, then I'd say so, yeah. Sorry, can I ask what the significance of ring doorbells is? Being watched and observed and not knowing by who, which very much could sound like stalking.

I guess if you've got someone with nefarious motives, watching somebody walk past their doorbell every day at a certain time, it makes it easier, I guess, to hook onto people. Right. How interesting. What are the findings of significance did you uncover in your research, Rochelle? One of the other findings, that most of their clients were failed by the system. Maybe that isn't that much of a surprise. Therapeutic modality didn't matter in the least. Expertise did. So it didn't matter whether the therapist specialised in person-centred theory, psychodynamic theory. None of that was important.

It was— What could they do with that information? I was surprised to learn that three or four were stalked themselves, and it dawned on me that had they not had that experience, would they know? And if they didn't also receive training in domestic violence settings, would they know? Stalking isn't always a domestic violence issue. Again, it can be carried out by a complete stranger. So it got me thinking about that as well. All therapists knew not to take too many notes, as the notes could be used against their clients.

So if matters were to go to court, they knew to take minimal notes, day, time, and what they did on the day. So one of the therapists said we did tapping, and that was it. And that's all thanks to their experience. That's it, I think. Okay, but can you— sorry, I need so much explanation, Rochelle. What's the meaning of the tapping? So it's the way in which the therapist worked with that particular client. So it's a method of grounding. So this is probably something they spoke about beforehand.

This was remote work that they did, and it could have been the client's preference to see how they can keep themselves safe.

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They're already feeling so unsafe, so tapping and having a therapist maybe guide you, help them feel more contained and safe in that session. Kind of shorthand for emotional freedom technique. Thank you. Rochelle, what do you think are some of the contributory factors that lead to people committing stalking? There is a lot of literature out there, and some of it has also been categorised into five separate categories of predatory stalker, the incompetent suitor. I don't think I'm the best person to actually talk about it because I haven't worked with the man that carried out the research.

But there is a lot of talk around attachment theory as well. And again, is it just theory or is it really something that was there in the findings? So, yeah, maybe it's best for me to leave that. I think there are other more qualified people and professionals who can really talk about that in depth, and I don't want to overstep my boundaries. No, that's fine. Of course, it wasn't the focus of your research really, was it? That's still to be done, perhaps. So within forensic practice, it can be quite common for therapists to become the target of stalking.

Do you think there are any additional concerns when stalking arises within the context of a professional relationship? Absolutely. It's not just therapists, it's solicitors, dentists, it's doctors. Again, who can identify it and will they be informed? It was only recently that my new class came forward and said that her place of work wasn't even telling her that she was receiving letters, and I don't think she was particularly happy about that because it does, again, it's a crime and you have to know how to keep yourself safe. Again, a multidisciplinary approach is required and needed.

I think when working in prison, there were quite a number of people who were regularly sending abusive letters to either solicitors or sometimes other people that they knew outside, but also individuals who would become quite obsessive about staff members, so kind of like following them around a lot, always monitoring where they were. And of course they're incarcerated, so you knew you were safe when you left the building. You didn't have to worry about that intrusion on your personal life.

But actually, it could feel quite invasive and controlling when you're in work, when actually you had to be wandering around the area where those people also are and knowing that you're going to be harassed or, you know, verbally attacked very regularly whilst you're at work. That sounds incredibly difficult to manage when it's your place of work. Obviously, there's been people who've been attacked and killed. There's been a number of nurses, haven't there, where they've been attacked and killed in the car park or support workers. So one imagines that stalking was probably part of those pictures.

And maybe that's how it's reported as the end result and not what led up to that behaviour, the crime. There was a crime before that, which was stalking, and that doesn't seem to be part of the picture most of the time, sadly. Have you seen the campaign to have a history of stalking and harassment included in DBS records? I mean, I was gobsmacked to find that that isn't the case at the moment, but there is a live campaign at the moment, isn't there, to try and change things. Were you surprised by that? I am shocked and very disheartened.

I think many people could have been kept safe if it were the case, if there was a register of some sort somewhere. For example, if someone signed an undertaking, a promise to the court that I will not contact this person, that's nowhere to be seen or nowhere to be found. That's buried somewhere, unless there's an inquest or unless they come forward and say that that's something that they decided to agree with. It's difficult to imagine that it's nowhere to be found on the DBS, and it shows that the system is very far behind and how little it understands about escalating behaviours.

It might start off with stalking, but it can escalate into, I wouldn't say more serious because stalking is very serious, but I mean the last resort is to kill someone. Well, and certainly the cases that I'm talking of in prison were individuals who had killed victims that they'd previously stalked and harassed.

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So there's that comes with that sense of menace when they're then doing that with the staff who are available to them in their daily environment. So all of this sounds like quite heavy content to be researching, Rochelle, especially when, you know, that's been part of your own lived experience. How have you looked after your own wellbeing when working with this kind of material and this kind of information? I had to be very sure that it's something I wanted to do first and foremost, which I was. So that's one tick.

Second tick was to speak to supervisors, and I, the way I feel good about things is to make sense of them. So I would go on and do more reading, and I think that's very reflective of maybe what clients feel. They want to make sense of their situation. So as much as I want that, that's something that they want. So I do stay in that cognitive framework, but maybe that's just me. Yeah, but it's not a lot, but I do like to keep reading and keep learning, and that lifts the load somehow. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. And finally, go on.

So there was one thing that I noticed is when therapists create profiles, they can click on specialisms, so whether that's trauma or chronic illnesses, and there was the term abuse, which is a very, very broad term. So I did speak to the BACP and I mentioned why it's so important to actually name coercive control and stalking. They are crimes.

They deserve to have their own categories, and in turn it will really help clients filter through and find therapists a lot quicker instead of clicking on abuse and going through so many profiles and try to find someone who works with stalking or who works with coercive control. So I'm very happy about that. Very happy that the BACP listened. I think it's a little step, but it's a positive step.

It deserves transparency and visibility, and I think targets already feel invisible, so we really need to keep the conversation going and have the terminology there accessible and ready, because I don't want that to be forgotten about, and I don't want it to sort of be diluted under the term abuse. Excellent. That's a very clear step. It's not a little step at all. I hope so. Thanks very much indeed, Rochelle. Really nice to meet you and hear about your research. Thank you both.

And we'll share a link to your paper in our show notes, as well as a link to that petition to this campaign to get it changed in terms of DBS records. Thank you very much, both. Appreciate it.