So, Rochelle, we're here today to talk about your research on how psychotherapists work with women who's been subjected to stalking. And you're quite clear in your research that you don't want to talk about the women as victims, aren't you? Can you tell us a bit about why that is? Of course. So I do refer to them as targets. This shows intent, and it brings in the person carrying the action, and it's not so passive where it sounds like a crime has occurred and by default there is a victim. So I wanted to sort of bring those two together in one sentence, hence the term target. And I have worked with people in the past who don't like to be referred to as victims, and I thought it was quite suitable because I do think that stalking is very calculated and targeted, and it's not by default, it's by design.

How do you define stalking for your research? I did start off by making it very clear that it is a crime. I didn't want that to be overlooked. But then there is no specific legal definition, which is part of the problem. There's a lot of ambiguity when it comes to stalking. So I like to use the acronym FOUR, which I believe is the London School of Policing, I believe. I cannot remember, but they use FOUR, which is fixated, obsessive, unwanted and repeated. And I think that really encapsulates stalking very well, and it's also very easy to remember.

So, for example, if it's online, and this is what one of my candidates told me, is that they will never send the same links; it will always every week be different links. They might even change platforms. And this particular therapist decided to not take on any new clients, thinking maybe the person in question could pretend to be a client. So it's about both. It's about how to keep the client safe and also how would the therapist keep therapeutic settings safe. And if they're meeting face to face, ask, how is the client getting there? Would you rather have morning sessions? Little things like that that would really help the client sort of really appreciate that someone is listening and that they are seen and believed.